Comments on: Suicide … Acceptable in the Case of Alzheimer’s? http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/ Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:18:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: anon http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5786 anon Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:54:31 +0000 http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5786 Choice- of course. My personal belief is that I would rather not die in a bed full of pee, not able to understand what is happening. I do not want any religious person to ever make a choice for me. People talk about doctors as healers and paragons. Not so so much about those who do not follow their Hippocratic Oath to do no harm- there are doctors who deny care on behalf of the insurance companies, doctors who write up policy for insurance companies, and doctors who just plain should not be doctoring. If a patient would like a choice, there ought to be a doctor somewhere who can help. Kind of like helping a woman end a pregnancy. There are some people who think that this is something important and valuable. The point is all doctors are not alike. There are docs who try everything to keep life going, those who are in the middle, and those who would wish that at their patients request they could help end suffering. Pain and suffering are not noble or necessary conditions for a human. Think of childbirth. It is no longer necessary to bring forth a child in great pain. This is a good thing. If I had AZ I would seriously think about ending my life. Same as certain cancers and other conditions that would make my being here more difficult and ultimately less pleasurable for all involved. Choice- of course. My personal belief is that I would rather not die in a bed full of pee, not able to understand what is happening. I do not want any religious person to ever make a choice for me.

People talk about doctors as healers and paragons. Not so so much about those who do not follow their Hippocratic Oath to do no harm- there are doctors who deny care on behalf of the insurance companies, doctors who write up policy for insurance companies, and doctors who just plain should not be doctoring. If a patient would like a choice, there ought to be a doctor somewhere who can help. Kind of like helping a woman end a pregnancy. There are some people who think that this is something important and valuable. The point is all doctors are not alike. There are docs who try everything to keep life going, those who are in the middle, and those who would wish that at their patients request they could help end suffering.

Pain and suffering are not noble or necessary conditions for a human. Think of childbirth. It is no longer necessary to bring forth a child in great pain. This is a good thing.

If I had AZ I would seriously think about ending my life. Same as certain cancers and other conditions that would make my being here more difficult and ultimately less pleasurable for all involved.

]]> By: Julie http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5513 Julie Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:59:08 +0000 http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5513 My husband is adamant that if he is ever given a diagnosis of Alzheimer's he will end his life. He says this because of his observation of people who were in the end stage of the disease and does not want to live like that. He helped found the Hemlock Society in Wisconsin. I went with him to the meetings and decided that I do not feel the same way. I decided I could not attend any more of the meetings as I was fundamentally opposed to their basis tenets. I can only hope that my husband does not ever receive a diagnosis of Alzheimer's. Moof asks "What are the moral, social and religious implications? If you do think suicide would be acceptable, do you believe physicians should be allowed to “help?” Perhaps that would obviate the need for timing?" I think that people have the moral authority to decide when to end their life. I believe the means are available to end ones life without asking anyone else to help. I don't believe I could help someone end their life. To confuse the issue I do believe in withholding life support if that is what the patient wishes. My father had an extremely severe stroke and the neurologist told us that his chance of any recovery was nil. My Mother was aware of his concerns and said he did not want to live under the circumstances he was in. So we agreed to have the feeding tube withdrawn. He died within 2 days so the feeding tube may not have made much difference. The end of life decisions are often not clear cut. My husband is adamant that if he is ever given a diagnosis of Alzheimer’s he will end his life. He says this because of his observation of people who were in the end stage of the disease and does not want to live like that. He helped found the Hemlock Society in Wisconsin. I went with him to the meetings and decided that I do not feel the same way. I decided I could not attend any more of the meetings as I was fundamentally opposed to their basis tenets.

I can only hope that my husband does not ever receive a diagnosis of Alzheimer’s.

Moof asks “What are the moral, social and religious implications?

If you do think suicide would be acceptable, do you believe physicians should be allowed to “help?” Perhaps that would obviate the need for timing?”

I think that people have the moral authority to decide when to end their life. I believe the means are available to end ones life without asking anyone else to help. I don’t believe I could help someone end their life.

To confuse the issue I do believe in withholding life support if that is what the patient wishes. My father had an extremely severe stroke and the neurologist told us that his chance of any recovery was nil. My Mother was aware of his concerns and said he did not want to live under the circumstances he was in. So we agreed to have the feeding tube withdrawn. He died within 2 days so the feeding tube may not have made much difference.

The end of life decisions are often not clear cut.

]]> By: Cathy http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5485 Cathy Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:54:15 +0000 http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5485 Oh no, its perfectly fine to mix up comments sometimes. I do it often. I knew you must have mixed me up with someone. I actually like these discussions where we all get to state our views and why. I hate the comments that get nasty and abusive but that hasn't happened. I find everyones views interesting and they give me alot to think about. Oh no, its perfectly fine to mix up comments sometimes. I do it often. I knew you must have mixed me up with someone. I actually like these discussions where we all get to state our views and why. I hate the comments that get nasty and abusive but that hasn’t happened. I find everyones views interesting and they give me alot to think about.

]]> By: Sid Schwab http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5477 Sid Schwab Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:53:32 +0000 http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5477 Sorry. I think I mixed up the comments of Cathy and intelinurse2b. Must be time to move on... Sorry. I think I mixed up the comments of Cathy and intelinurse2b. Must be time to move on…

]]> By: Cathy http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5457 Cathy Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:01:10 +0000 http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5457 First, I havent mentioned anything whatsoever about anything being Gods will? I don't think God has anything to do with Alz. My views have all been stated from my personal experience, of being the sole cargiver of my Alz. victim mother, for more than a decade. Watching and experiencing ever step, day by day of what Alz does to someone. My conclusion, is that although it is horrible, it is not reason enough to commit suicide. My fear is that, should suicide one day be allowed, it would eventually lead to euthanasia. I agree that there should be more, and better, ways to offer help and assistance to caregivers. For the most part mother was quite content with whereever she was at during the course of this illness. Very early stage is when it is harder on the patient. When they are still lucid, but have these periods of confusion or memory loss and they are aware something is wrong. Progressing beyond that they aren't aware of what is happening to them. My fear, for my future, is that I also will get it and my kids will see it and experience it. I don't want to kill myself I just don't want them to see it. First, I havent mentioned anything whatsoever about anything being Gods will? I don’t think God has anything to do with Alz. My views have all been stated from my personal experience, of being the sole cargiver of my Alz. victim mother, for more than a decade. Watching and experiencing ever step, day by day of what Alz does to someone.

My conclusion, is that although it is horrible, it is not reason enough to commit suicide. My fear is that, should suicide one day be allowed, it would eventually lead to euthanasia.

I agree that there should be more, and better, ways to offer help and assistance to caregivers. For the most part mother was quite content with whereever she was at during the course of this illness. Very early stage is when it is harder on the patient. When they are still lucid, but have these periods of confusion or memory loss and they are aware something is wrong. Progressing beyond that they aren’t aware of what is happening to them.

My fear, for my future, is that I also will get it and my kids will see it and experience it. I don’t want to kill myself I just don’t want them to see it.

]]> By: wandering visitor http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5439 wandering visitor Sat, 12 Aug 2006 03:10:44 +0000 http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5439 Hi Moof, You've raised some really good questions. I think every person has the right to their beliefs, whether it be about how they choose to conduct their life, to what they feel about death and ending their life. Physicians try to relieve suffering. At the bedside of a dying patient, we try our best to make their passing comfortable - as much morphine as they need to appear comfortable. But to ask a physician to take a life before its time is to ask us to play God. It does not seem right. I would never be able to assist in a suicide. It goes against a core belief, that all life is holy and should be cherished. But given the great diversity among us, there are physicians who may truly believe that they are doing a greater good when participating in euthanasia. After all, principles such as "First, do no harm" are just concepts - the interpretation of them differ greatly from person to person. In the case of Alzheimer's disease, I agree with the points raised, that the patient usually does not suffer nearly as much as the caretakers or loved ones. And while we may never find out, it is possible that the quality of life of these patients may not be as bad as we think - after all, we are using our measures of "quality" to judge another's life, which has been proven inadequate in similar situations (studies on happiness of lottery winners and happiness of paraplegics). Perhaps, we, as a society, should create with more effective ways to help ease the burden of the caretakers, and increase the support for caretakers. Hi Moof,
You’ve raised some really good questions.

I think every person has the right to their beliefs, whether it be about how they choose to conduct their life, to what they feel about death and ending their life.

Physicians try to relieve suffering. At the bedside of a dying patient, we try our best to make their passing comfortable - as much morphine as they need to appear comfortable. But to ask a physician to take a life before its time is to ask us to play God. It does not seem right.

I would never be able to assist in a suicide. It goes against a core belief, that all life is holy and should be cherished. But given the great diversity among us, there are physicians who may truly believe that they are doing a greater good when participating in euthanasia. After all, principles such as “First, do no harm” are just concepts - the interpretation of them differ greatly from person to person.

In the case of Alzheimer’s disease, I agree with the points raised, that the patient usually does not suffer nearly as much as the caretakers or loved ones. And while we may never find out, it is possible that the quality of life of these patients may not be as bad as we think - after all, we are using our measures of “quality” to judge another’s life, which has been proven inadequate in similar situations (studies on happiness of lottery winners and happiness of paraplegics). Perhaps, we, as a society, should create with more effective ways to help ease the burden of the caretakers, and increase the support for caretakers.

]]> By: Wm H http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5438 Wm H Sat, 12 Aug 2006 03:09:34 +0000 http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5438 The answer is simple, suicide is not an option to be concidered by the patient or the loved ones. I form my opinion on my belief that there is a God, and although the Bible does not speake on mercy killing or suicide, it does speake on murder which these forms of death fall under. My family know my feelings on this so it is never to be an options in my life, but..if someone in the Medical field takes it upon themselves without our knowledge to pull the plug..........I thank them ahead of time and hope like hell they have a dream team when they face the final judgement. The answer is simple, suicide is not an option to be concidered by the patient or the loved ones. I form my opinion on my belief that there is a God, and although the Bible does not speake on mercy killing or suicide, it does speake on murder which these forms of death fall under. My family know my feelings on this so it is never to be an options in my life, but..if someone in the Medical field takes it upon themselves without our knowledge to pull the plug……….I thank them ahead of time and hope like hell they have a dream team when they face the final judgement.

]]> By: intelinurse2b http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5434 intelinurse2b Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:53:35 +0000 http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5434 ok, so back to suicide. Suicide has always seemed like an act of desperation by someone who is expressing hopelessness and despair with their loss of control over their situation. So if someone committed suicide because of an Alz. diagnosis, my heart would break for them because they felt so helpless and hopeless and I could not relieve that suffering. ok, so back to suicide. Suicide has always seemed like an act of desperation by someone who is expressing hopelessness and despair with their loss of control over their situation. So if someone committed suicide because of an Alz. diagnosis, my heart would break for them because they felt so helpless and hopeless and I could not relieve that suffering.

]]> By: Sid Schwab http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5432 Sid Schwab Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:31:00 +0000 http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5432 I think the playing field has subtly shifted here: at first, we were talking about suicide; now we're talking about euthanasia. Euthanasia, as I see it, doesn't apply to an Alzheimer's patient, because a requirement (legally; but also logically) is that the patient is fully competent to make the decision. So let's not get confused about what we're talking about. We started on a rhetorical plane: would I (for example) choose suicide if I saw Alzheimer's coming. As to euthanasia -- that's an entirely different issue. Cathy suggested that to intervene is to interfere with God's will. Which, of course, is also true if I take out an appendix, isn't it? We can't be selective in assigning a condition to God's will. If He has plans in giving a person cancer, and wouldn't want us to speed that person's death, than how can it be that He doesn't have plans in giving a person appendicitis? Why -- to put it another way -- is it a miracle when one kid lives through the crash of a school bus? If God saved the kid, then it must follow logically that He also chose not to save the others. So why is the death of the other kids no less a miracle than the survival of the first? Each -- logically -- is God's will. Each is an action of God. It must be so; or neither is. My point is that when we try to ascertain God's will, we are interjecting personal views. So, to me, it's not an argument against euthanasia to say it's interfering with God's plan. There may be other good arguments pro and con, but to me, that's not one of them. The idea of euthanasia has pitfalls. It's also true that in Oregon, where it's legal in certain situations (hair-splitting: as I understand it, it's doctor assisted suicide, which is, I suppose a little different from active euthanasia), it's being used quite rarely. Frankly, as a physician, I wish I had the option, when all else has failed and when the patient rationally and reasonably desires it, to speed him or her to a satisfactory end. And as anyone who works in a hospital knows, such things happen all the time. It's a challenging topic. One on which very good people disagree. But I think we already have too much of government deciding morality. I think the playing field has subtly shifted here: at first, we were talking about suicide; now we’re talking about euthanasia. Euthanasia, as I see it, doesn’t apply to an Alzheimer’s patient, because a requirement (legally; but also logically) is that the patient is fully competent to make the decision. So let’s not get confused about what we’re talking about. We started on a rhetorical plane: would I (for example) choose suicide if I saw Alzheimer’s coming. As to euthanasia — that’s an entirely different issue. Cathy suggested that to intervene is to interfere with God’s will. Which, of course, is also true if I take out an appendix, isn’t it? We can’t be selective in assigning a condition to God’s will. If He has plans in giving a person cancer, and wouldn’t want us to speed that person’s death, than how can it be that He doesn’t have plans in giving a person appendicitis? Why — to put it another way — is it a miracle when one kid lives through the crash of a school bus? If God saved the kid, then it must follow logically that He also chose not to save the others. So why is the death of the other kids no less a miracle than the survival of the first? Each — logically — is God’s will. Each is an action of God. It must be so; or neither is. My point is that when we try to ascertain God’s will, we are interjecting personal views. So, to me, it’s not an argument against euthanasia to say it’s interfering with God’s plan. There may be other good arguments pro and con, but to me, that’s not one of them. The idea of euthanasia has pitfalls. It’s also true that in Oregon, where it’s legal in certain situations (hair-splitting: as I understand it, it’s doctor assisted suicide, which is, I suppose a little different from active euthanasia), it’s being used quite rarely. Frankly, as a physician, I wish I had the option, when all else has failed and when the patient rationally and reasonably desires it, to speed him or her to a satisfactory end. And as anyone who works in a hospital knows, such things happen all the time. It’s a challenging topic. One on which very good people disagree. But I think we already have too much of government deciding morality.

]]> By: intelinurse2b http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5426 intelinurse2b Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:35:46 +0000 http://moof.blogsplot.net/2006/08/10/suicide-and-alzheimers/#comment-5426 I used to be the marketing director for an assisted living which specialized in the care of the "memory impaired." One of the things I was shocked to learn was that the pt does experience moments of lucidity when they realize what is happening to them. As the process progresses, these episodes become less and less frequent and the pt can seem "blissfully unaware" of the state they are in. So I would say this act of mercy killing is helpful to those around the pt. Even if the the pt stated ahead of time they did not want to live like that, the fact may be they wouldn't know they were living like that, so it cancels out their need to not live like that. ??make sense? In depression, it seems an awareness of the debilitation does exist for the pt, and its successfuly treatable in a much higher percentage than with Alz. That would be the only difference. For no. 2, I am currently very interested in learning all I can about what happened in New Orleans and why the ENT doc appears to have taken the life of patients that were merely unable to be moved out of the hospital. Was this done because the doc couldnt live with the emotional burden of knowing the pt would have drowned, died from heat exhaustion, or died otherwise from neglect? Cathy brings up a very interesting point I have never considered. If your life is taken and you didnt get an express vote or say in the matter (taken by an active act of killing vs. a disease process) then it has to be murder, or we have to re-define murder. I used to be the marketing director for an assisted living which specialized in the care of the “memory impaired.” One of the things I was shocked to learn was that the pt does experience moments of lucidity when they realize what is happening to them. As the process progresses, these episodes become less and less frequent and the pt can seem “blissfully unaware” of the state they are in.
So I would say this act of mercy killing is helpful to those around the pt. Even if the the pt stated ahead of time they did not want to live like that, the fact may be they wouldn’t know they were living like that, so it cancels out their need to not live like that. ??make sense?

In depression, it seems an awareness of the debilitation does exist for the pt, and its successfuly treatable in a much higher percentage than with Alz. That would be the only difference.

For no. 2, I am currently very interested in learning all I can about what happened in New Orleans and why the ENT doc appears to have taken the life of patients that were merely unable to be moved out of the hospital. Was this done because the doc couldnt live with the emotional burden of knowing the pt would have drowned, died from heat exhaustion, or died otherwise from neglect? Cathy brings up a very interesting point I have never considered. If your life is taken and you didnt get an express vote or say in the matter (taken by an active act of killing vs. a disease process) then it has to be murder, or we have to re-define murder.

]]>