This Makes Me Mad
U.S. threatens suit if Maine probes Verizon ties to NSA
The Bush administration is threatening to sue if Maine regulators decide to investigate whether Verizon Communications illegally turned over customer information to the National Security Agency.
And it also makes me … afraid.
I’m not one for conspiracies … and i seldom give such things two consecutive seconds of thought … but this is today’s paper, our real paper, and not some tacky tabloid. Although the Portland Press Herald has a liberal slant, you don’t see this sort of thing in there very often.
Verizon … is a large company. Not just local to Maine. Is Verizon illegally selling your phone information to the government?
If they are … you’ll never find out. Apparently, the government will prevent you from trying!
I’m all for getting rid of Verizon, AND the current government! :o(
August 4th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
holy crap. that is completely disgusting. is it 2008 yet? it just keeps getting worse. i’m fearing some nuclear grand finale from these freaks.
August 4th, 2006 at 10:52 pm
I understand the desire to keep our privacy private. And I totally understand why we don’t want a government to be following and listening to us and invading our privacy without a warrant.
But…
I don’t really have a problem with the government checking my cell phone usage. I don’t have a problem with them listening to me either. I don’t have anything to hide, but there are those who do.
Heck… they already know some of my most personal information that I have. All they have to do is call the IRS.
It is amazing how the United States is the most free country in the world, and at the same time…
We have the easiest country to…
~hide in
~move funds around and through
~network with others outside of the country
~form groups and cells
~and commit terrorist acts in.
We’re sitting ducks because, in many ways, we hog-tie our officials and government agencies.
We don’t prohibit much of anything here. Even the rape and murders in our neighborhoods still occur without too much abate. How about the drug dealers? Our prisons are full of people who have committed crimes.
The problem is, the crime has already been committed and not prevented.
Sure, a few people have been robbed, raped, and murdered, but as a society we don’t seem to be too motivated to stop our own thugs. If we really wanted to, we could.
But we’re a free society. Free to chose how we want to live our lives. In or out of the “system”.
How bad do we want to stop another 9/11?
Bad enough to give up a few freedoms?
I appreciate my freedom as much as anybody, but there are a few freedoms that could be temporarily rescinded if it were to help protect me and my family and my way of life.
later…
August 4th, 2006 at 11:28 pm
TJ, I’m sorry. I love you to wee little bits, but I have to respectfully disagree with you.
Our laws, at least the good laws, should be enforced, of that there is no doubt; but our freedoms, which truly were purchased through the blood of our ancestors, should remain sacrosanct.
The government seldom turns loose of an area it’s taken possession of: think of Federal Income Tax … which was supposed to be temporary, the returns used as a fund for the war. If our freedoms are removed today because of a danger, tomorrow another danger will replace it, and rather than regain what we’ve lost, we’ll lose even more.
No, we should not allow a nanny state to be built around us for the sake of safety.
I believe that more government does not mean better government.
Ugh! I’d better not get going. This isn’t really something I ever intended to tackle on this blog. Politics and religion … tinder kegs!
August 5th, 2006 at 2:41 am
There were actually 3 phone companies - AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, who allegedly supplied data to NSA sometime May. Qwest Telecommunications company didn’t hand in data though.
Eavesdropping big time is hideous, whether one has something to hide or not is immaterial. It’s privacy of an individual trespassed.
Yes, you have reason to be mad Moof.
August 5th, 2006 at 8:45 am
Ipanema, thank you for your comment! I didn’t realize that AT&T and BellSouth were also implicated. I’m going to keep an eye on Qwest … I wonder if the company’s fortunes will change over this …
But then again … I guess I have to hope that they would be able to continue unmolested … otherwise, it would say some very unpleasant things about my country.
I find this sort of thing really upsetting. I always have. I guess there’s just no getting away from it.
August 5th, 2006 at 9:04 am
I had no idea this was happening, and I have Verizon for my cell phone company.
I do remember there being a problem when the government wanted Google to turnover their records to see what people were researching on the internet, and Google fought that for the sake of privacy. I have a feeling that 9/11 has changed things. How is the government suppose to prevent something like that from happening again without using some of these methods? I don’t have the answer…
August 5th, 2006 at 12:50 pm
I understand your misgivings Moof about such topics and I really appreciate you letting me voice my opinion in your forum.
I would like to interject a couple of more thoughts here and then I will try to apply a muzzle to my keyboard.
*sheepish grin*
The Benjamin Franklin quote actually states:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
I would really like to read the quote in the context from which it was taken, but *alas*…
I cannot locate it online at this time.
However, here is a more conservative point of view and discussion of this quote.
Thanks Moof…
And I “love you to bits” too!
later…
August 6th, 2006 at 12:19 am
I don’t actually have a problem with data mining to stop terroists. I have serious problems with this administration doing it outside of the courts, when in fact they didn’t have to. And there is absolutely no reason that I can fathom that they should be trying to prevent this law suit now (since the whole things is revealed) except for defensive maneuvering to prevent private civil law suites against the executive branch from the information this suite would reveal. I am at the point I really believe our President has broken federal statutes so many times that, short of executive pardon by his predecessor, he deserves to be prosecuted ad infinitum simply to prove to the world that we are a nation of laws and that no one is above the law.
This administration is the worst thing that has happened to our country in my 42 year life time. I would take Nixon or Carter either one back over this loon.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:12 am
As T. J. says, I have nothing to hide. But that doesn’t mean anybody has a “right” to know without my permission, about my life in its nitty gritty details.
If anyone can “know” about anyone, without their free consent, then eventually evveryone will live and become only one “big, boring, individual”. The homogenization of human species.
Of course, I am exaggerating. But I hope you get my point.
And my bit of a quote for the context…
In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve (because, they elect it in the first place).
Moof: BTW, long time since I visited your blog, after the “crash”. Sorry. It seems now you are up and roaring and have a different (good looking) theme and lots of bells and whistles. Great going.
August 6th, 2006 at 5:57 am
Moof, About the invasion of privacy issue, I side with you and Arunn.
I will add some more that is off topic but in context. You can take it off this post if you want to. I won’t mind. After all, this is your blog and these are my personal views.
The major problem in the USA these days - by that I mean the last century or so - is that there is no political heterogeneity. I honestly cannot tell the difference between your supposedly ‘right-of-center’ Republicans and ‘left-of-center’ Democrats. Most Indians would agree with me on that. What America needs today is a greater variety in its politics. The two party system isn’t going to work if there is very little difference in their policies.
Imagine if you guys had a full colourful spectrum of parties like we do here in India.
Imagine a ‘Communist Party of America’ at the left extreme and say a blatantly right-wing, fundamentalist ‘New Klux Klan’ or ‘Black Panthers’ party at the right extreme and a gamut of political parties which would have their own vote banks.
And imagine that you have a coalition government where all decisions would have to be by consensus. That would be true democracy. Or that is how it should work. Though it doesn’t seem to have worked that well in India over the last 12 years.
At least there will be people in your Government or in the Opposition who would question these kind of acts. Now you have to depend on the Democrats overcoming the propaganda masterstroke of ‘If you’re not with us, you are against National Security’ and raising a stink. Frankly, I don’t think that is likely to happen.
As far as I know, your constitution does allow multiple political parties. Or am I wrong? Ross Perot had the right idea. Too bad it didn’t work out.
‘Government of the people, by the people, for the people.’ I’m sure your first Republican President did not say this as a ’sound-bite’ or a publicity gimmick.
Till something like that happens, all right-thinking (& I mean right as in correct, not the other one) Americans should do what they have always done, live freely and pursue happiness.
That aside. Why don’t you start a political party Moof, and name it the ‘Grateful Dead Party.’ I’m fairly certain we will have atleast a dozen members. Note the we, I would like to be recognized as one of the founding members with immediate grant of US citizenship. ;)
August 6th, 2006 at 8:18 am
Moof: This one is out of the context of this post. After reading some comments sprawled over several posts, I came to this: you are a GD fan. Gees…me too…I love them! So, as scan man says (above this comment), if you start that PP have me in as one of the founding DeadHeads…;)
August 6th, 2006 at 10:18 am
Pattie, you have a valid question:
And I don’t have the answer, either. However, I do know that oppressing the citizens isn’t going to stop terrorists. Perhaps our own “political correctness” has us hog tied …
It’s my understanding that it’s not “correct” to single out those who would more likely be terrorists from those who wouldn’t, and so little old ladies in wheel chairs from Schenectady get body searches at the airport while … well, enough. There’s so much that needs to be “redone” that I honestly don’t know where we should begin …
—
TJ, my dear heart, you’re very welcome to come here and say anything you want - ever! You’re like “family in my home.”
About the Ben Franklin commnent … this is where I got my information:
They had quite a bit about it, because apparently, he’s been misquoted in several ways: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin
—
Dr. Gordon … you said:
I feel exactly the same way about that. Right at the moment I’m so completely disenchanted with our government, on many levels, that I’ve completely stopped listening to what any of them are saying.
—
Arunn, you are exactly right - we get the government we deserve. I’ll say a bit more about that later, however.
I also want to comment on your Grateful Dead party … *LOL* … dear heart! I hate to disillusion you. We’re not speaking about the rock group - but rather about a very tasty (and potent!) alcoholic beverage!
I will try to put a post up for the recipe later today. :o)
—
Dr. Scan Man, I know that all you hear about are the 2 major parties, but we do have a very large list of “third parties.”
Here is an incomplete list:
* Alaskan Independence Party
* Aloha Aina Party
* America First Party
* American Heritage Party
* American Independent Party (Currently affiliated with the Constitution Party)
* American Party
* American Nazi Party
* American Patriot Party
* American Reform Party
* Charter Party of Cincinnati, Ohio
* Communist League (US)
* Communist Party USA
* Conservative Party of New York
* Covenant Party (Northern Mariana Islands)
* Democratic Socialists of America
* Free People’s Movement
* Grassroots Party
* Greens/Green Party USA
* Independence Party of Minnesota
* Independent American Party (Currently affiliated with the Constitution Party)
* Independent Citizens Movement (US Virgin Islands)
* Labor Party
* Liberal Party of Minnesota
* Liberal Party of New York
* Libertarian Party
* Liberty Union Party
* Marijuana Party
* Marijuana Reform Party (New York)
* Mountain Party (West Virginia)
* Natural Law Party
* Nebraska Party (Affiliated with the Constitution Party)
* New Party
* New Progressive Party of Puerto Rico
* New Union Party
* New York State Right to Life Party
* Peace and Freedom Party
* Personal Choice Party
* Popular Democratic Party of Puerto Rico
* Populist Party of Maryland (Nader 2004-affiliated, unrelated to earlier so-named parties)
* Prohibition Party
* Puerto Rican Independence Party
* Reform Party of Michigan
* Republican Moderate Party of Alaska
* Revolutionary Communist Party
* Social Democrats USA
* Socialist Action (US)
* Socialist Alternative
* Socialist Equality Party (US)
* Socialist Labor Party
* Socialist Party USA
* Socialist Workers Party
* Southern Party
* Southern Independence Party
* United Citizens Party
* Unity Party of America
* Vermont Progressive Party
* Voter rights party
* Workers World Party
* Working Families Party
* Workers Party, USA
* World Socialist Party of the United States
Now, I think that the reason that we never hear about any of these people is because of the voters themselves. An Independent or a Green party person will step up to the plate, and only serve as leverage against the major party they most resemble - by drawing off votes that would otherwise have gone to the larger party.
The voters of the two major parties are very different at their extremes. Democrats are more socialist, wanting a larger government which is more closely involved in social programs … while Republicans are more conservative, want a smaller government, less in the way of social programs. The Democrat party is considered more liberal, and stands behind gay marriage, abortion, and other “left of center” issues, while Republicans tends to be more conservative about those social issues.
But - that’s the people … not the government.
You get what you vote in, but you never get what you voted for.
Personally, I’m more conservative, although I don’t completely identify ideologically with either of the major parties. The party I most closely identify with, to my chagrin, is not on the above list.
I won’t name the party, but their basic premise is as follows:
* Ending Legalized Abortion
* Cutting the Federal Government Down to Constitutional Size
* Ending the IRS and Oppressive Taxation
* Withdrawing from United Nations and U.N.-Related Organizations
And I’m not sure of how I feel about one of the above issues …
August 6th, 2006 at 10:37 am
Moof:
I agree with you. Doesn’t this news make you wonder what Bush is trying to hide from the American people? I wish people would wake up and understand our civil liberties are under attack.
Mother Jones RN